U.S.S. Relentless Released

[Wicked Zombie]

[Centurus]

Can someone give me a towel please? And a cigarette? I think I had a moment, and I want to bask in the afterglow.

[Phillip]

A convincing mid-life refit for the Excelsior? No way...

[Chris Johnson]

Well how would you design it then? Like the show? Keep it unrefitted-looking from the outside? Keep more-efficient tech for less-reliable ships? Have some imagination, Phillip. It's a good design. I can hardly believe an Excelsior-class like the Melbourne would have such a high registry (NCC-62043) without being some sort of upgrade in technology for some final batch of Excelsior-class Starships or what not.

And for critique on this Starship, I'll just quote what I posted in your thread from the Taldren Forums:

Although as I stated before that I'm not fond of the "bloated" sections of the secondary hull the Enterprise-B so-called "Refit" had (as well as the Big boxy impulse engines that should've easily melt off the forward-half of both warp nacelles), I still like the design. It looks much improved from your other Relentless designs (although I still like 'em, sort-of... At least nostalgically), and I'm really fond of how you did the rest of the ship. Again, a matter of taste, and I'm sure we don't need to discuss about it again like we had on your forum, as it's your work, your taste that should matter in your designs. And I still like the ship anyhow.

So, once again, good work.

[Phillip]

Chris said:

Well how would you design it then? Like the show? Keep it unrefitted-looking from the outside? Keep more-efficient tech for less-reliable ships? Have some imagination, Phillip. It's a good design. I can hardly believe an Excelsior-class like the Melbourne would have such a high registry (NCC-62043) without

[/i] being some sort of upgrade in technology for some final batch of Excelsior-class Starships or what not.[/quote]

In actuality, I concur that it's quite impractical for the Excelsior to have served almost a century without at least one major overhaul. However, I've found myself disliking many of the attempts I've seen at a retrofit, as they had a garish, impractical quality to them that made them viable as denizens within Q's vision of the future in All Good Things...

So when I saw this evolution of the Relentless, I was a little surprised to see an an Excelsior retrofit that appealed to me as a logical, realistic, and tasteful alternative to the largely unchanged versions we've seen on the screen. Thus, I wrote a comment intended to praise WZ's efforts via mock disbelief.

So, yes...you completely misunderstood my statement, Chris. But it's okay.

[Mayhem]

I for one think that the refit rocks, it takes a well known design, and does what should of been done to it along time ago

[Mariner Class]

Your definetley getting closer to my idea of a TNG-refitted Excelsior/Enterprise-B The lack of extra impulse engines help immensly, and even though some of the "refitted" details are rather, "crude," it's still awesome model work. It's atleast better than my latest farce of a model, the CC-01 Enterprise, which will be posted here in a few minutes.

Anyway, if you want my full review of this things "problemsm," take a look. Don't take any of these as bashing, just my honest opinions:

*Warp engine engine fronts, did they HAVE to be lighted? And I miss the greebling of the engines up top, because the lack any interesting details that prevent the otherwise inevitable "sausage" nacelles.

*New shuttlebay dome, it needs some kind of texture of mesh work, because to my eyes, as a simple grey sphere is even worse a tack on than the TUC "box." Something more reminicent of the NX-2000's original "skylight dome" would better suit the ship here. It would also add light to a dim section of the ship.

*Impulse engine "upflares." Just...dumb. Sorry. PErsonally, I would have liked to have seen two modified Galaxy engines placed here and remade to fit the Excelsior's lines. I'd have to draw it to explain. I do like the attempt to mimic the mis-colored impulse crystals of the TUC 1701-A though, even though they need to be a more off white to get that effect accuratley.

*The bridge/command decks are too simply textured. Mind installing a Ten-Forward or two?

*Thanks for making a sec hull shuttelbay, but could you atleast light the thing and give it doors?

*NECK "FLARING"=BAAAAAAD. Something like an Ambassador style semi-grill arrangement/framework would have been great here though, something I've always wanted to see done right.

*The pylons should have been forward sloping, as per the TSFS preliminary sketch. This would have tightened the evolutionary bond between the Galaxy and Excelsior (my personal Ambassador is a bit different than the final product, hence why I ignore it here.) They also should have been a bit skinnier, as the way you've pulled them forward looks simply ugly, though admiriable in it's attempt.

Here's that sketch (with the incorrect size as the final model shows,) from Nilo Rodis at ILM. Bill George designed and constructed the final Excelsior model. The "actual" size of the Excelsior should be 637.5m, not the oft quoted 467m based soley on the original sizeof the design.

www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/excelsior/rodis-sizechart.jpg

I'm going to post my model here, then get your model, then proceed to hand sketch "my" modifications if you're interested in seeing them.

[Wicked Zombie]

As usual, the Relentless gets overly criticised again...after it's released and finished of course. All of those points you made stem from your own personal preference and opinions. Getting overly critical and halfway insulting in regard to a modeler's own personal taste is just...dumb. I don't criticize other's work because I honestly don't think they need it and certainly don't expect them to listen or change it based solely on my own viewpoint. I just keep quiet and mind my own business and not waste everyone's time uselessly. But, just for the sake of argument and because I've had to deal with this type of stuff all week:

-Warp engine lights - Is it really so difficult to 'delete' them yourself? Though, the Sovereign and Constitution have them...

-Shuttlebay dome - Who cares?

-Impulse engine upflares - Personal preference

-The impulse crystals on the E-A were primarily blue, except in a few shots of them being orange. It's fairly obvious that I was 'mimicking' the ones on the Lakota...the Excelsior...from DS9.

-Bridge and Command Decks - They match the rest of the Excelsior's 'simple' detailing. Mind looking at a reference or two?

-The 'shuttlebay' - It's never been proven one way or another just what that is supposed to be. If you'd care to check out the Enterprise-B/Lakota, you'd notice that that area isn't lit and there were never doors there. Later Excelsiors from TNG don't have the lights there either. However, if you'd look closely, you'd see that my version has the lights, if only subtle.

-Neck flaring - Personal preference.

-Forward sloping pylons = BAAAAAAD. Most ships that I've ever seen with forward sloping pylons always look like a "chicken in a pan". You don't honestly think changing the pylons so drastically would improve the Excelsior's look, do you?

-The originally designed scale isn't consistent with most on-screen evidence. There's no 100% definite scale, if there were, it wouldn't be an issue.

I thought I'd made it clear already that I was not making any major alterations to the Excelsior and this was a 'late-model' version. At the risk of being arrogant, you don't actually expect me to listen to all this and suddenly decide to totally redo the ship based solely on your critiques? I fail to see any point, then, in delving into these excessive nitpicks, especially when you don't even like the ship or my "crude" attempts and model work. If you don't like it, you certainly have no obligation to download it and I certainly have no obligation to give a damn.

Since this is nothing like your own 'vision' of a refit Excelsior, there isn't much purpose in bashing it. That's like criticizing a Mustang for not looking like a Corvette. Instead of trying to make your vision from my work, why not just make your own version and save everyone the trouble? I mean, that's the reason I started doing ships...

Normally I'm a very laid back guy, but this type of insulting/excessive criticism over the same tired old details has strained my patience - what little is left after the bs I've had this week. Don't take things too personally, but you really need to work on your tact because calling someone's work 'dumb', 'crude', and 'bad' isn't going to make someone more receptive. You may not have intended it as bashing, but it sure as hell looks that way, and that's what I'm basing my own reply off of.

[Relayer]

I'm not a big canon expert. So, I'll forgo "checking for accuracy". Plus it's a semi-original design. Can't really compare it to a studio model, can we? I also seem to be in the minority in that I actually like the Ent B, chin piece and all. Since I'm not a modeler, I can't critique the technical aspects either.
All I can say is it looks real good. Great textures (a WZ trademark), real smooth lines, and everything fits.
I actually like the idea of an open hanger. I wish more models were done that way. I'd like to see it go a bit further and have the interior of the bay detailed. Add a shuttle or two, etc... My personal dream model is a throughdeck carrier with the tunnel deck open all detailed out with ready racks, fighters, drone storage, crew, etc... Now admitedly, it'd be dumb for SFC (It'd be cool as hell for something like Homeworld though.), but I'd like to see it anyway.
So, keep up the good work. Too many Feds though. Give us somemore Rommies or something, please. ;D

[Phillip]

Wicked said:

At the risk of being arrogant, you don't actually expect me to listen to all this and suddenly decide to totally redo the ship based solely on your critiques?

If it helps, I vote no...

[mayhemuk]

WZ mate i for one love what you have done, when i first saw her, i couldnt help but think that she is a great refit, and something that the people at trek would do.

[Centurus]

My philosophy on ships are that I always love to see someone's idea of what a ship should be like. If I like it, I use it. If not, I don't use it. As long as it appeals to me, I like it.

[Mariner Class]

You know, I guess I was a little too "excessive" in my review. But you know what, that's my review. Overall, the ship is great, but there are just many small things I didn't like.

Your model work is great as always, it's just we have differing ideas on what a future Excelsior should look like.

Besides, would you have preffered mindless praise instead?

[S33K100]

You know there are some things Mariner pointed out about the ship that I dislike aswell (blank observation dome thingy, curvy neck, upturned edges on the impulse engines) but WZ made the best point in this whole discussion - it's too late now and it's his model anyway, if you wanted to try and change his opinion on a part of the model it should have been done before he'd completed it. It's unlikely anyone could change WZ's opinion on anything on his models but that's when any critiques should be made.

Of course mindless praise is worse than insulting criticism in my opinion but when something is only your opinion you should take care not to use words such as 'it looks dumb' or it's baaaad' or any other unqualified statement as tacking on 'in my opinion' doesn't make it any less insulting - besides some other may like the very features you dislike and not take kindly to you saying they are dumb.

[Wicked Zombie]

Mindless praise and harsh criticism are in the same boat in my book. There's a fine line between personal taste and everything else. If you don't like the ship, that's fine but there isn't any reason to 'review' it a week after it's already released. It's kinda pointless because I'm obviously not going to redo the ship, it's the way I wanted it, and I'm not the type to service other people's interests. It basically comes down to you either liking it or not liking it, downloading it or not downloading it - simple as that.

You obviously have a different opinion of what a TNG Excelsior should be, but arguing over personal taste and trivial details seems like a waste of time to me. As I said before, instead of doing that why not try to create your own version? Make something that you're satisfied with and that fits your own viewpoints. And by all means, post it here and see what others think. That's what the forum is for, afterall.

I know my response was harsh, but I figured one should see things from the opposite side. Don't take anything I said too personally - getting riled over a bunch of polygons and pixels isn't good for anyone's health.

[Chris Johnson]

Wicked said:

I know my response was harsh, but I figured one should see things from the opposite side. Don't take anything I said too personally - getting riled over a bunch of polygons and pixels isn't good for anyone's health.

I didn't think it was harsh, and I totally agree with your post. Of course, there are people who will think differently about things. I do have only one disagreement with how you did the Relentless this time around (the "bloated" secondary hull), but as I keep repeating, I don't expect you to change anything because I expressed my taste. Nor should I wish for you to change your mind on that and bow down to other people's taste. After all, it's your work, it's what you want, not what anybody else wants. I don't think it's harsh to defend your way of working, which is impressive. I still like the Relentless despite my only pet peeve about it. It's something I'll happily live with until I actually have enough sense to learn modelling and texturing myself.

[Mariner Class]

So....

when will you get to the normal Excelsior? Will your make the NX-2000, the NCC-2000, or both?

[Centurus]

If you know where to look, you can always download his last Relentless model, and swap some textures from his current model onto the older one, and presto, best of both worlds. :-D

[Wicked Zombie]

Both probably. I actually have an older unfinished set of Excelsiors still collecting dust...needless to say, those models aren't worth finishing. I'm sick of messing with Excelsior textures so it's hard to say when I'll ever get those made.

Ah, and don't read too much into my rant - I was actually calm and reasonably sane when I typed it. I just figured everyone could view things from the opposite perspective...even if I ran the risk of looking like a jackass

[Mariner Class]

Coming from a professional, I think you did a swell job of avoid it.

[Lord Schtupp]

lol I realize that this is somewhat an old thread but I just found this forum, how lucky for you huh...

well this model is certainly killer, I really like the primary hull superstructure treatment with the flared impulse section. Overall a very stylish vessel, much sexier than a standard Excelsior or Ent-B. Awesome textures as usual with WZ.

Also very entertaining and revealing were the posts in this thread - I am curious what is considered "Mindless praise" and why its worse than harsh criticism.

[Wicked Zombie]

Schtupp, you finally showed up. Now I can have the satisfaction of kicking you out

Your guess is as good as mine regarding the answer to that question.

As far as my post was concerned, that was just me being a smartass

[Lord Schtupp]

Wicked said:

Schtupp, you finally showed up. Now I can have the satisfaction of kicking you out

lol damn thats good. That is really good. But surely you jest. kick me out? You would unscrew the very lightbulb of warmth and joy thats brightens the otherwise dim pallor of the Dark Realm? Heaven forfend...

As far as the other goes WZ i supose I should have quoted the fellow, but my question was really retorical sarcasm which I realize now doesnt work in the forum enviroment, anyway nobody needs to explain or elaborate, least of all the master of the realm.